Tagged: roles
Question- June 19, 2013- The paradox of Oneness and Individuality
Om Shanti Dear Brother you say the subtle energy of life is not divided in many pieces. It is one. Does that mean Brahma and Shiva are just roles and not two different souls? If two souls are not different then how is it that the experiences and feelings of one soul are different from other souls at the same particular moment of time. If that living force is One then how is it that at same moment of time but at certain place that living force is in the state of Soul / Original Consciousness and at some another place the same living force is in body consciousness. Thank You
Dear soul,
Thank you for your question.
Please read again this reply written to a smilar question than yours.
http://bkgyan.com/2013/06/14/reader-remark-the-paradox-of-individuality-and-oneness/
The challenge of communicating some of this information is very steep.
This blog is being read by many individuals from all walks of life. Not only BKs.
As such, the spiritual knowledge shared here is not the “traditional” 7 day course and “black and white” concepts for, realizing BK knowledge without the devotional and ritualistic factors; will give you a different view.
Dear soul, This role is not “against rituals and devotional views.” This role accepts that (if that is important for some) but at the same time acknowledges that there are other view points as well where other individuals may understand and appreciate spirituality.
In these sharings we are finding out that there is something called a Paradox. That word has been used a lot in this blog. As a matter of fact, it is my understanding that many souls including BKs are appreciating the extent of that concept. The same thing with “numberwise” and “entropy.”
Those concepts have not been explored in depth by a typical “7 day course,” for it could become confusing for some; I suppose.
However, in this blog we can realize that addition and subtraction are not the only mathematical operations. Why become stuck in adding and subtracting only; for the sake of “simplicity,” and so “everyone could understand,” when there is division and multiplication as mathematical operations?
This blog is merely showing that. Some may understand, some may not. Many could say that because multiplication and division are not taught in BK knowledge, this is not BK knowledge . 🙂 For that, I just have to say: “Time will tell.” 🙂 If you want to add 108 times 8, go ahead. I rather multiply 108 x 8. Same result, however.
Spirituality is ONE, not many; but viewed from different perspectives according to roles and understanding.
With this lengthy introduction, let me just go back into the “basics” to answer your question.
Is the Drama one or many? 🙂
If the Drama is one, and roles are pre-ordained through that One Drama; that means that ONE manifests into many (souls) right?
A soul without a role is like a “sleeping beauty.” There may be individuality but not consciousness and without consciousness, no one is there… 🙂
You see many roles and many souls. I see ONE DRAMA (One living force) being interpreted through many souls.
Both perspectives are right.
This is called a Paradox.
Body consciousness and soul consciousness are just “consciousness” dictated by a role at a particular time.
There is “no consciousness” and “consciousness.” (Being and non-being) Within that consciousness, there is soul consciousness and body consciousness.
Why is all of the above important, and why not just stick with the “basics”?
Because the “truth” is beyond the “basics.”
To understand that, will give us the openness to acknowledge different view points, so to defend a particular religious ideology is no longer the point… but the point is to “see” Spirituality in all different views. Just like different souls expressing different roles; which paradoxically go back to Oneness of the Drama, the living force.
Best wishes!
Reader Remark: The paradox of individuality and Oneness
Om shanti brother.
Brother, you said, “That “subtle energy of life,” is not divided in many pieces. It is One. However, because it is expressed through many beings; it gives the appearance that it is embodied in many beings. In other words, our bodies give that energy the appearance of individuality, which is further expressed by a personality.”
Well, brother, please explain how you have arrived at this conclusion. If it is the same life energy running through different bodies, how can we account for different sanskars of different souls/ people?
Yes, we ‘identify’ a soul by the body he/she/ it is occupying; and we also know that each soul is unique and there will be a world of difference between some souls.
It still sounds ok that we are all ‘leaves’ of the same tree and that we are individuals having the same life energy (with different ‘concentrations’). Even not a single leaf of any tree is the exact replica of another leaf of the same tree. They may look alike, but they will have some minute differences in their form.
If “preordained roles are enacted through human beings/ souls’ – our present understanding is that a soul should have the capacity to play a role assigned to it and the capacities of souls do differ.
That shows that the souls are separate. It is like, we are all ‘birds’ flying together, but are flying on our own.
And, we are the individual droplets of life, ‘flowing together’ thus making it a stream of life.
That is why, when all of us are interlinked and connected, what we give unto others reverberates and comes back to us. Treating ‘others’ with love will make us also experience love.
Even now, the more we practise soul consciousness, the more we can easily link our intellect to any soul in the world and can pass on our thoughts/ feelings to them INSTANTLY. Most of us are experienced in this aspect. And we can also ‘feel/ experience’ the stage the other soul is having at that particular moment.
This shows that we are individual souls having different stages of soul consciousness/ purity at any point of time and that we can experience anyone’s company in a second. All we need to have is the stage of soul consciousness, the only aspect that will enable the ‘meeting’ of a soul to another soul or many souls as well as the Supreme Soul.
regards,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thank you for your well thought out note!
I am afraid that we will be dealing into the corners of too much thinking… But I truly appreciate your question!
Dear soul,
We are dealing with the paradox of individuality and Oneness. You see individuality. I see Oneness.
Who is right?
Both.
Who is wrong?
Both.
🙂
We are dealing with duality of concepts. Our understanding goes according to our consciousness. It is not that a particular consciousness is “higher” than another, but just a different perspective.
There is a Drama. It is One not many. However, it manifests as “many” for it runs through different actors.
If you go watch a play in the theater, you perceive actors acting different roles, however; their roles are already scripted to fit the writings of the Director of the play.
Let us say, you watch the movie “Saturday night fever” (1977) starring John Travolta.
Now, here is a simple description of the plot: “Saturday Night Fever is a 1977 American dance film directed by John Badham and starring John Travolta as Tony Manero, an immature young man whose weekends are spent visiting a local Brooklyn discothèque…’
John Travolta is not Tony Manero. Just as a soul is not the role.
However, John Travolta is there acting, because of the forces of the destiny. He was “selected” to act in that movie.
We simplify by saying it is the movie director who selected him. In Sakar Murlis, that director is God.
However, we know that the “sanskaras” which Travolta demonstrated to be selected are not really “his.” It is part of the role playing in that soul. Those sanskaras are nothing else that the expression of being numberwise. Every actor displays a set of sanskaras which are determined by the Drama for they are needed at a particular time.
Also, we know that the writing of the movie director is not really his writing, but came through him.
Who was behind all of that?
The Drama.
Who is the Drama?
The interplay of being an non-being, the interplay of duality which makes the Drama tick. The “sankaras” which express in the world of action as “karma.”
It is the spider web of the Drama, the “subtle energy of life.”
Souls without roles to play are like stones sitting in the pavement. “Sleeping beauties” if you like.
A Soul can give life to a body, but roles give that body “something to be.”
John Travolta without his role of Tony Manero, wouldn’t be known at all. It is that role what made the difference.
Therefore, if the Drama is one but expressing many things through actors; why do we just see the separation of different actors?
If the tree is one; why do we like to be caught up only in the manifestation, that is in looking at how different the leaves are?
A soul may be individual but the “sleeping beauty” does not make the Drama tick. The roles do that- Drama. Please see how that individuality of the soul is meaningless without the Drama.
The Drama is One flowing through the individuality of the souls.
Best wishes!
“ME and OTHERS:” The greatest illusion
When we have the knowledge of the Drama, which is the subtle movement of the current of life from seemingly opposite but complementary polarities, we could appreciate roles enacted by beings; that is us; human beings.
That inner “being,” is known with many names: soul, spirit, atma, living force. Choose your religion, you will find a label.
That “subtle energy of life,” is not divided in many pieces. It is One. However, because it is expressed through many beings; it gives the appearance that it is embodied in many beings. In other words, our bodies give that energy the appearance of individuality, which is further expressed by a personality.
That is how the illusion becomes a reality.
Nevertheless, according to our consciousness; we could see “division” or “unity.” It is the reality of One which perceived as many.
When we look at another human being, we are capable of distinguishing a different body, a personality and ways of behavior. We call that the “other.”
There is a division. “Me” is born out of that perception of being different.
However, in the Drama of life; we can understand; that pre-ordained roles are enacted through human beings. A Personality is a role and so is the behavior.
Therefore, we could even go further and say: “A human being is not the body.” That human being is not the personality or behavior either.
And we conclude, that a human being is really a metaphysical being, a soul. 🙂
However, this conceptual idea will give us the same perception as with the body; that is “I am a different soul than you.”
Please see the fallacy of this. All I am doing is transferring beliefs, concepts from a body to something, which I conceptualize as a soul. Just changing words.
Still ego remains for there is separation.
The concept of “ME and OTHER” or “I and YOU,” are just dualistic concepts.
THE SOUL IS BEYOND DUALITY. That is why there is Oneness.
THE SOUL IS BEYOND TIME. That is why, it is eternal.
Therefore, any dualistic concept which we could pretend to dress up as soul consciousness is inherently flawed.
Male and female. Duality. If we perceive that, we are not in soul consciousness.
Me and Other. Duality. If we perceive that, we are not in soul consciousness.
Please note that to know a CONCEPT is not the same as experiencing the thing.
Male and female are concepts. The experience of male and female energies brings the natural state of complementary energies; that is unity; but any concept of separation is part of the conceptual mind, the ego.
“There is a soul in a female body with a distinguished personality.” That description is part of the role. Still we have not reached the “being,” the soul or the spirit.
The moment that we perceive that being, that soul while we are in that same consciousness; then at that moment; there cannot be separation. There cannot be individuality; for paradoxically, even we could perceive ourselves as individual souls; for a soul there is no such a thing as “individuality” for that brings duality and then, the experience of soul consciousness will be lost.
A soul is beyond duality.
When we realize this convoluted “reasoning,” (not logic) what could be the “reasonable” behavior then?
Appreciation of the unique role performed through every soul… and love from soul to soul.
Love from the soul, the heart and appreciation of the unique part.
If you are doing that already, the forget about this writing. Throw it away. No need to figure it out.
Here is the simple example to illustrate the above.
I “do” something to “other.” There is a return from that doing to “me.”
If what I do, comes back to “me,” then where is the “other”? 🙂
That is the “illusion.”
If I truly see others as “souls,” how can I say that , they are different than “me”?
How can “I” do something for “them”? 🙂 How can “i” help them? 🙂
However, when we talk, when we express through language, we need to use those concepts.
If we get caught up in concepts we will miss the “boat” of self realization.
If we self realize, we realize the “other” as well.. then, we could appreciate his/her unique “performance” in life.
Questions for June 8, 2103 – Roles, Shiva.
Om shanti brother What does bapdada mean when he mentions become merged in father’s love. Would love to hear your thoughts 2) what is baba trying to explain – become emperor or subject. I believe it is an analogy for something. I can relate to higher state of awareness and reduced state of awareness as we all are number wise.. Look forward to your thoughts Thqnks
Thank you for your question.
Dear soul,
What BapDada means is an experience. It is not a definition. Become merged in love and you will find the Father’s love. Feel that love that you are and you will find “real” love.
That love that you are is not different, in my experience; than the Father’s love.
On question number 2, the Father wants for his children to be the best… That is in a talk suited for a childish mind, that means to become an Emperor, number 1, Narayan, etc; etc.
The Father wants for his children not to slack off, for the children may be thinking that once they reach Paradise that is all and since the children are BKs, then Paradise is an automatic “reward” according to SMs. Then, there has to be something to become, something to compete with others, higher marks to get, percentage, etc to fulfill ; that is the carrot in front of the donkey, so the donkey can continue moving forward. See?
When you become soul conscious like anyone else there, does it make any difference what your role is? If it does, isn’t that “role consciousness,” leading into body consciousness? Could it be possible to be in “paradise” and to think:
“ I wanted to be Laxmi, why didn’t I become that? “ Isn’t that sorrow in Paradise? 🙂
Best wishes,
Dear soul, The thought of an eternally repeating cycle makes me wonder if Shiva has recollection of the previous/future cycles. Surely that must not be the case. I assume that Shiva lives completely in the moment focusing on his role to purify his children and provide the foundation to start the golden age. Also, I have been thinking what does Shiva do between the golden and silver ages. What role does he play at that time? Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Many thanks brother
🙂 Thank you for your question, dear soul…
In this Drama, no one does anything. Everything gets done through us according to the Drama. A soul receives a role. That role is not the soul, but just a role like in a play for little children.
A child has the role of a donkey, another child the role of a king. In their next life, the child who was a donkey may become a princess, and the one who was a king may be a toad. See?
You are humanizing Shiva as if he “was working hard for us” as the SM mentions ( at the office from 9 to 5 PM, and even overtime…making plans to save the children from the claws of Maya, the villain.)
If Shiva was like us but He could not forget; it would be “severe punishment” for Him, to remember every cycle countless times. Remembering and forgetting is duality. Shiva is beyond that.
Is there any other way that “Shiva can purify his children,” besides reminding them this knowledge through Brahma which will be understood in a “numberwise way”?
We will “do” (remember, we don’t do anything) the rest, according to our prescribed part.
Thus, what Shiva does between the Golden and Silver ages? 🙂
He rests for 2500 years after having a “hard time” trying to convince His children to self transform at the confluence age… 🙂 🙂 🙂
Dear soul,
I apologize for not being able to share anymore on this for now. I hope you understand for there are many levels of souls reading this.
However, as your experience increases in self transformation, you will understand the answer of your question very well. It is just a matter of patience and time.
Best wishes!
.
Question: Statistically, can I become a King?
Looking at the souls statiscally I have found a few questions tickling me always. In almost every murli Baba tells us that He is making us the king of kings, we are all becoming Laxshmi Narayan, He is sending us to Satyug and we have 84 births. But going by statistics only 16 souls ( 8 kings and 8 queens) are eligible for this in the Golden age. Only 9 lakh souls will have 84 births. How can we say that we are all going to become king of kings. As much as we try we should accept that the real high posts of Satyug are filled by the senior BKs. We have many dadis and senior brothers and sisters in gyan for 50+ years. What is left is the position of subjects. Baba does not like this question but statistically is it not true that we are all racing for the position of subjects which might not require all the intense effort in the form of Amritvela, food, Brahmin discipline etc.
Thank you for your great question!
Dear soul,
In Sakar Murlis, Baba’s method to motivate the children was to tell them that “everyone could be a King.” Then, in other Murlis, he has mentioned, that “Number 1 and 2 are already fixed” but also that “the children should race ahead of Mama and Baba.” 🙂
Then, in avyakt Murlis, BapDada changed the “plan” into “become part of the first division.” No more Kings and Queens.. become part of the royal family…. and then, He said that “He could add more beads in the Rosary of Vishnu…” 🙂 BapDada’s role has always been to motivate the little children to reach the “stars” according to a childish understanding of the children, of course.
I disagree with you as far as thinking that “the real high posts in Satyug are filled by Senior BKs.”
To be a senior BK is a role like any other role. Every role has its own “pros” and “cons.” Your capacity for self realization is not proportional to the hierarchy of the role that you play in the world, but in your ability not to be a “role” but soul consciousness.
Finally, let me show you something interesting… For us, this thing of becoming a King or a Queen is a big deal. What do we gain in the world of happiness? A status… we happily say..that is from our perspective right now.
Now, once you are in the Golden age and you are a “happy camper,” soul conscious and blissful; let me ask you what is the difference between a “king” and a “subject” for a self realized deity? 🙂
It is just a role. The word “status” is not known.
For a self realized being, the castle is not important neither how many”veemans” you got. But enjoying the self is…
Best wishes!
Question: I find that situation, people, events, sanskars and karmic returns will force (not the right word) /create the path and lanes to bring you to the level of spirituality you are supposed to be in per drama. Ie. John who is not a gyani soul but in a life situation, where he might have lost his dream job, or his family members he is attached to or become sick and cannot take the suffering anymore that might make him look for the real meaning of life where he might end up becoming a gyani soul if it is in the drama, and further, he might explore more to gain deeper experience, but for Ram who is a gyani soul would be happy with the little experience he has and continue with his spirituality as what is supposed to be in the drama. Your thoughts?
Thank you for sharing your good observation!
Dear soul,
John and Ram are part of the Drama, their roles are needed as they are for they are connected with other roles in the Drama.
Some souls will have the roles of “angels” others, will not. Are souls who have the roles of “angels” better off than other souls’ roles? Is the kid who received the role of a tree in a play worse off than the kid who received the role of a prince?
The kids are just playing a role. Just a role. The kids are not the role.
Some souls have the capacity to “die alive” now. Others, are enjoying themselves now. The grass is green by the neighbor’s tree “now” but that will change, even if in another life. That is why the Drama is not “forcing” anything (as you pointed out, is not the right word) but it is “allowing” every actor to reach their “destination,” their “next stop.” Because it is a circle, a cycle, there is no question about being “better” or becoming “better.” Do you see that? Basically, John is “making effort” to become John again… and Ram is “making effort” to become Ram again… and avyakt7 is making effort to become avyakt7 again… 🙂 Then, we ask: Why make effort? Then I respond, Why not? 🙂 Those who have it within their roles, will do so. Those who do not will not. At the end, Ram will be Ram, John will be John and avyakt7 will be avyakt7 again….
Now, let us see what the Sakar Murli mentioned today: 4/18/13:
Question: Who is a satopradhan effort-maker and who is a tamopradhan effort-maker? What is the difference between the two?
Answer: A satopradhan effort-maker promises and makes effort to claim the full inheritance from the Father. He races to stay in
remembrance. He has the aim of claiming number one. A tamopradhan effort-maker says, “Whatever is in my fortune is fine!
It is fine if I become a subject.” Maya causes such obstacles for such souls that they drop out of the race.
Once we read this, then we think: “That brother avyakt7 is just sharing his own manmat. Baba wants me to make maximum effort. Baba wants me to race in the race of remembrance. That avyakt7 brother, is a tamopradhan effort maker…whatever is in the Drama he says…”
Right? 🙂
When there is ego, we want to be “number 1.” That means, “I” am different than anyone else. “I” have accomplished something. “I” want to be an “emperor” in the Goden age, that is “my” “aim and objective.” “I” must not be “tamopradhan,” “I” must be “satopradhan.”
The paradox is that to be “number 1”, we need to become ego-less. See that? Would an ego-less being want to become #1? Would an ego-less being “do things” in the Drama as “I am doing this now, making “my future” for the “better”? Would that person accept a setback in life seeing that it is an ego shattering experience or will try to fight it to become “number 1”? See the paradox?
Therefore, By becoming ego-less we become number “1” WITHOUT WANTING TO BE NUMBER “1.” If we want to be number 1, there is ego and with ego I cannot claim my “full inheritance.” Didn’t BapDada mention about not having desires in the last avyakt Murli? (4/14/13) Isn’t wanting to be number 1 a desire? 🙂 That is a “pure desire” I hear… right… and “I” am using “pure” gyan… 🙂
However, Baba was dealing with “little children” who will not understand these things but become lazy due to not having an experience of what it means to be ego-less. EXPERIENCE not talk.
Here, we are dealing with seeing BK knowledge with greater depth.
Getting to be ego-less is arriving at the destination. The comparison of what is “satopradhan or tamopradhan” is duality. Being ego-less is to be out of duality. It is to be one with the Drama, like a leaf floats on the waters of a river… the current is set, the destination is there… there is nothing to “do,” but to “be.” Enjoy. become easy. Experience that which is eternal. Become a Kid in the eternal play and not a role.
Best wishes!
Question: Dear Brother, I am so thankful for your blog as it is answering/ clarifing so many points for me a relatively new student to BK. I have searched and read all the articles on this site regarding’ ‘drama/ always beneficial’ and am still puzzled as to how/why is this ‘benificial’!! I know Baba has said this but I can find no explanation for this. Is the drama beneficiaa for all the souls ……or a selected few? If we say numberwise then when / how did the auditions take place (selection)? If it is beneficial for all the souls, would you kindly share your thoughts, churnings and reflections on this? Thank you so much for your help and guidance.
Thank you for your kind words and great question!
Dear soul,
Aren’t you thankful for this blog as it is answering so many questions? Isn’t that “proof” that this Drama is “beneficial”? 🙂
You searched all over the place. You asked so many people and finally, your search received its fruit. Beneficial, isn’t it? You didn’t plan on this blog being written, neither did I. I just happened at the right time. Beneficial.
The Drama is neither “good” nor “bad.” It is “beneficial” for ALL SOULS, for it will take us to our point of highest capacity (low entropy) so we can experience after that our point of lowest capacity (highest entropy) so then we can repeat the circle again. In other words, “you will be you again” Isn’t that wonderful? 🙂
We are “numberwise” for otherwise we wouldn’t be able to experience “entropy.” Without entropy, there is no experience of duality. Without duality there is no experience of “living and dying, pleasure and pain, fame and defamation, black or white.” See? You know all those things because you are experiencing life. In short, without being numberwise, there is no Drama.
Auditions? Selections? 🙂 For that there is a need of an “I” -ego to recognize that “I” am being selected for this role. Souls do not have that perception. Only in “body consciousness” there is that perception of “I” being separated. We are all “instruments” of this Drama. No role is “better” than anyone else, for the same amount of happiness experienced will have its counterpart in sorrow.
The word “capacity” does not imply as “better” than “lower capacity,” for comparisons do not exist in “reality,” in the Drama. That comparison is only a “mental” idea, a thought which does not fit Gyan. We are using the terms which we were taught at school to understand something “new,” which is not possible to do.
Has Brahma Baba more capacity than Hitler? Yes and No. Paradox.
Yes, because Brahma Baba will experience greater happiness but at the same time greater sorrow. However, “Greater happiness” does not exist. 🙂 My happiness is all I know. I cannot know if my neighbor has greater happiness or has experienced greater happiness or will experience greater happiness. See? Therefore, what is the point on looking for an “audition” when all roles are “the same” but “different”… 🙂 – I love those paradoxes…
AND….
No, because there is no point in comparison. We are numberwise. Both souls are different, although the same in essence, that is souls.
In short: Whatever role you get, is “beneficial,” for it will take you to “now” again after many births. That role fits you perfectly like a glove. It couldn’t be any “better.”… In this Drama there is nothing like “becoming better or worse” those are terms that we have been “brainwashed” with (but necessary to use in order to explain and to make myself understood somehow.) We are all eternal, experiencing life in different ways. All “beneficial,” all necessary, all accurate.
Best wishes!
Exploring the Depth of Living 